00:00:00

Music plays

00:00:03 Rebecca Arnold

When you air seal and insulate, it's one of the biggest ways to reduce the heating and cooling load of your house. So if you have more insulation in your attic, your house is going to stay warmer longer in the winter and it's going to stay cooler longer in the summer.

00:00:18 Alex Haworth

I think we as a society would benefit from being like more knowledgeable about systems in our home and how they how they all interact and what the cost implications and health implications of all these things are. I think that's really valuable information for people to understand and it can be empowering.

00:00:35 Michelle Moran

Welcome to BuildingWell, sustainable homes, equitable communities, your new podcast from New Ecology. Join us as we explore real life stories from key players in green building and community development. We'll examine exciting new innovations, highlighting practical solutions for creating more affordable, healthier, more resilient equitable communities. We're building well together.

00:01:00 Molly Craft

This episode was made possible by the Mass Save Community Education Grant.

00:01:05 Michelle Moran

Welcome to the Building Well podcast.

00:01:07 Michelle Moran

I'm Michelle Moran, one of your hosts, and I'm here today with my cohost, Alina Michelewicz.

00:01:11 Alina Michelewicz

Hello.

00:01:12 Michelle Moran

We have a very exciting episode for you today.

00:01:15 Michelle Moran

It's a little out of the ordinary for this podcast, and I think we're going to have a lot of fun, a little background first at New Ecology, like at many workplaces, the lunch table is the hot spot for lively discussions and problem solving. And we do both personal and professional projects alike, it's where our new and innovative ideas are born.

00:01:34 Michelle Moran

I mean. Where else can you find a table full of experts?

00:01:37 Michelle Moran

So that's the spirit we wanted to bring to you all today with our very first call-in style question and answer episode. Over the past few weeks I've been gathering questions about buildings and energy efficiency from New Ecology staff, and today they will finally be getting some answers.

00:01:54 Michelle Moran

So, let me introduce our star guests today.

00:01:55 Michelle Moran

Today we have Rebecca Arnold, Project Manager, and Alex Haworth, Senior Energy Rater welcome.

00:02:01 Alina Michelewicz

Welcome Alex and Rebecca.

00:02:03 Alina Michelewicz

We're so excited to have you guys on every time.

00:02:05 Alina Michelewicz

I talk to you. It's such a delight.

00:02:06 Alina Michelewicz

This is gonna be a great episode.

00:02:08 Alina Michelewicz

Could you start by introducing yourselves, your career background and what you do at New Ecology?

00:02:14 Rebecca Arnold

Sure. My name is Rebecca Arnold.

00:02:16 Rebecca Arnold

I am a project manager at New Ecology.

00:02:19 Rebecca Arnold

My professional background is I started in construction and construction management in Baltimore City, renovating row homes with Habitat for Humanity. While I was doing that.

00:02:32 Rebecca Arnold

I was lucky enough to get a chance to do some energy efficiency upgrades on those row homes, and I learned a lot and it really inspired me to learn more about how to do.

00:02:44 Rebecca Arnold

The best possible job at construction. I saw my first blower door test.

00:02:47 Rebecca Arnold

Saw my first infrared scan.

00:02:49 Rebecca Arnold

And from there I moved into.

00:02:51 Rebecca Arnold

More energy efficiency.

00:02:52 Rebecca Arnold

Work everything from working for an insulator to doing energy audits.

00:02:59 Rebecca Arnold

And now I'm at New Ecology, doing a whole variety of things. Everything from existing buildings to new builds.

00:03:06 Alex Haworth

Cool. Thanks Becky.

00:03:07 Alex Haworth

Not too dissimilar, but I found my way into this industry out of college. Not long.

00:03:13 Alex Haworth

I'm dating myself, but not long after 2008 financial crash in the federal stimulus package that it incentivized.

00:03:20 Alex Haworth

Changes and adaptation and expansion of state weatherization programs, which, if you're not familiar, are services targeting low income, primarily homeowners, to make durability and energy efficiency upgrades to the home.

00:03:32 Alex Haworth

Those programs have been around since the 1970s. Since the first oil crisis, and a lot of building science emerged out of that industry.

00:03:38 Alex Haworth

That began in the Pacific Northwest. I was working in a rural.

00:03:42 Alex Haworth

Setting in and around tribal communities.

00:03:45 Alex Haworth

Reservations, a lot of rural poverty.

00:03:47 Alex Haworth

I had been interested in housing issues.

00:03:49 Alex Haworth

Prior to doing this, but it opened my eyes to the kind of endemic issues facing housing throughout the country and started to.

00:03:56 Alex Haworth

Gain an interest in building.

00:03:57 Alex Haworth

Move back to the East Coast to Baltimore, MD, where I still live and can't built on that work. Working for the Office of Sustainability, doing a lot of community outreach this time in an urban setting.

00:04:06 Alex Haworth

And then realized that there's so much technical expertise that I wanted to gather and so ended up joining.

00:04:12 Alex Haworth

An energy auditing company, where I became certified as a BPI professor.

00:04:16 Alex Haworth

You know, and it kind of built from there. I've worked on a lot of market rate and low income, single family existing housing programs somewhere along the way. I started to realize that I really desired to work on new construction because I saw it as an opportunity to.

00:04:29 Alex Haworth

Do things right from the get go.

00:04:30 Alex Haworth

Design out flaws that I see in existing buildings and so yeah, I was kind of looking for that kind of opportunity to to move from existing building to new.

00:04:37 Alex Haworth

Construction when the opportunity New Ecology came along, what's been great about being here is that I get to a bit of both.

00:04:42 Alex Haworth

I still get to work on existing buildings and new construction.

00:04:45 Alex Haworth

So Rebecca and I have.

00:04:46 Alex Haworth

Yeah, we, we've been in similar spaces for.

00:04:48 Alex Haworth

Over a decade.

00:04:49 Michelle Moran

That's.

00:04:50 Michelle Moran

Awesome. Thank you so much and thank you both for being here.

00:04:52 Michelle Moran

We're so excited, so I'm going to open up the call in our first category is hazards or safety questions and our first person asking a question is our very own Alina.

00:05:05 Alina Michelewicz

My question is about knob and tube electrical.

00:05:08 Alina Michelewicz

So we went through a home energy assessment and we couldn't do some of the recommendations because we have knob and tube tube in our house and I got some quotes from electricians for mitigating it and.

00:05:21 Alina Michelewicz

One electrician actually said it's not that dangerous and like maybe don't worry about it that much.

00:05:25 Alina Michelewicz

And I was like interesting.

00:05:27 Alina Michelewicz

So I'm curious.

00:05:28 Alina Michelewicz

You perspective on the danger of having knob and tube in an old home.

00:05:33 Rebecca Arnold

So your house probably won't burn down tomorrow.

00:05:37 Rebecca Arnold

It's a functional system that has worked for a long time and it could continue to work a long time.

00:05:45 Rebecca Arnold

And it doesn't incorporate most of the modern electrical requirements that you would want in your house today, and all of the upgrades to electrical code. It's fragility will prevent you from being able to do a lot of things, not just energy efficiency upgrades.

00:06:04 Rebecca Arnold

When you want to upgrade some of your electrical appliances.

00:06:07 Rebecca Arnold

For example, it's harder for the knob and tube to handle those loads and.

00:06:11 Rebecca Arnold

And whenever anyone messes with your house.

00:06:14 Rebecca Arnold

So if someone has to walk through your attic or someone has to do work in your basement, that knob and tube is very easily damaged.

00:06:22 Rebecca Arnold

And that's when it becomes dangerous. So knob and tube.

00:06:26 Rebecca Arnold

In its original form, functioning today is not as safe as modern wiring.

00:06:31 Rebecca Arnold

But it is also very fragile and so much more likely to be damaged and.

00:06:37 Rebecca Arnold

Cause problems in the future.

00:06:39 Alex Haworth

Definitely something I've seen a fair amount of in and around Baltimore, we have a lot of historic homes were homes and also old Victorian houses that would just highlight other things to maybe be concerned about.

00:06:50 Alex Haworth

Often times those systems remain in part like if your home has been updated.

00:06:54 Alex Haworth

Piece meal. Hopefully there's a known junction where that is tied into back to the panel, but oftentimes you see unsafe splices and things like.

00:07:03 Alex Haworth

That I don't know if all of them tube always had cloth coating. I don't want to misspeak here, but I think it often did.

00:07:08 Alex Haworth

This wiring was installed at the latest in the 1940s.

00:07:12 Alex Haworth

And that material is almost certainly degraded at this.

00:07:14 Alex Haworth

And so again if it's static and stable, it may not be in danger of shorting overheating. But like any kind of disturbance could potentially eventually cause an issue.

00:07:24 Alex Haworth

Any type of system in a home that's lasted going on 70 years is probably due for an update. And of course it can be an relatively expensive update to make to your home potentially.

00:07:33 Alex Haworth

There’s other opportunities like looking into updating your service or if you.

00:07:36 Alex Haworth

Have a goal for long term electrification and maybe it's good to kind of think about those things in conjunction.

00:07:41 Alex Haworth

It's a industry standard to not insulate around that type of wiring.

00:07:47 Alex Haworth

In the world of BPI, which deals with existing housing as a kind of a mantra of do no harm.

00:07:51 Alex Haworth

So like you don't want to, you don't want to make an energy efficiency upgrade at the risk of even potentially endangering the residents.

00:07:58 Rebecca Arnold

Our housing stock in the US is aging.

00:08:01 Rebecca Arnold

People don't really expect housing stock to last a long time.

00:08:05 Rebecca Arnold

But the reality is it is forced to. We aren't building new, durable homes that are.

00:08:11 Rebecca Arnold

Lasting a long time.

00:08:13 Rebecca Arnold

But as we talk about the bigger issues of like climate change and needing to deal with embodied carbon and.

00:08:20 Rebecca Arnold

What I'm trying to say is there's just certain things you have to spend money on in your house that aren't.

00:08:27 Rebecca Arnold

Fun and aren't pretty.

00:08:29 Alex Haworth

Or, necessarily immediately increase the resale value.

00:08:32 Rebecca Arnold

But it's just the reality of home ownership, and it's a delicate dance to figure out what the most important things are.

00:08:38 Rebecca Arnold

I would say knob and tube is up there.

00:08:40 Alex Haworth

In our work, we often talk about like 0 over time for carbon or energy, and I think that in the existing single family housing stock we.

00:08:50 Alex Haworth

Have to take a similar attitude to understanding the proper sequencing of home improvements.

00:08:55 Alex Haworth

So that people have a road map not just for energy efficiency, but it's deeply tied into durability and health and safety.

00:09:03 Michelle Moran

Yeah, definitely.

00:09:05 Michelle Moran

So the next question is related and it's actually from me.

00:09:09 Michelle Moran

Why is it so important that I air seal and insulate my home before doing other energy efficiency improvements? For example, window replacements, etcetera?

00:09:18 Alex Haworth

I think maybe two things I would highlight.

00:09:20 Alex Haworth

One, it's usually the intervention that has the best savings to investment ratio or return on investment, right?

00:09:27 Alex Haworth

It's usually doesn't involve.

00:09:29 Alex Haworth

Heavily invasive measures or very costly materials.

00:09:32 Alex Haworth

I mean, it still is a skill and the difficult work, but oftentimes.

00:09:36 Alex Haworth

Those interventions have the best return on investment and provide residents with immediate comfort, benefits and energy savings. And usually there is a return of between two to five years or something like that. For those types of things.

00:09:48 Alex Haworth

And that's great.

00:09:48 Alex Haworth

And that's been kind of the low hanging fruit for the industry for a long time. I think it's important we don't just stop there.

00:09:54 Alex Haworth

Then the second thing I would highlight is that.

00:09:57 Alex Haworth

When we talk about going further, maybe electrification or system replacement, we need to have driven down loads as far as we can.

00:10:05 Alex Haworth

So that's reducing the heating and cooling needs of the home so that we can size the equipment more efficiently and that that can potentially be cheaper equipment as well.

00:10:14 Alex Haworth

It’s going to run less.

00:10:15 Alex Haworth

Now the question becomes like there's the first level of air ceiling insulation, which is usually what is accessible in my home.

00:10:22 Alex Haworth

Usually those are areas like an attic. If you have them or unfinished basement, that's usually.

00:10:28 Alex Haworth

Number one.

00:10:29 Alex Haworth

But then there's usually a kind of a phase two which would require you to go deeper.

00:10:32 Alex Haworth

Can I address leakage in my exterior walls that enclosed rim joists?

00:10:36 Alex Haworth

And those things are either invasive, which may you may not want to undertake them if you're living in the home, or to do them in a non invasive manner is more costly.

00:10:45 Rebecca Arnold

Just to for people who aren't as familiar with our industry jargon, you touched on defining what loads are. So when you air seal and insulate, it's one of the biggest ways to reduce the heating and cooling load of your house.

00:11:01 Rebecca Arnold

If you have more insulation in your attic, your house is going to stay warmer longer in the winter.

00:11:06 Rebecca Arnold

And it's gonna.

00:11:06 Rebecca Arnold

To stay cooler, longer in the summer.

00:11:09 Rebecca Arnold

One of our concerns about the electrification movement is that the air sealing and insulation could get skipped in some cases and the way you're heating and cooling system works is different depending on the type of heating, particularly the heating system you have.

00:11:26 Rebecca Arnold

So if you want to move with the electrification movement and reduce the carbon footprint of your house and go to a heat pump, it's really important to make sure you've air sealed and insulated first.

00:11:38 Rebecca Arnold

Because the way a heat pump heats your house feels very different than the way a gas or an oil furnace or a propane furnace feels when it heats your house.

00:11:49 Rebecca Arnold

That gas or oil is going to put out heat at a temperature that's very high.

00:11:54 Rebecca Arnold

So they're throwing heat out of the vents of your house at like 100°, for example, but a heat pump to get your house to the same temperature is going to throw out heat at much closer to the temperature you're trying to heat to.

00:12:08 Rebecca Arnold

And the way your house is warm is because that heat is held in your house for a long period of time, and it builds up.

00:12:16 Rebecca Arnold

So you're heating your house differently.

00:12:18 Rebecca Arnold

You can be.

00:12:19 Rebecca Arnold

At the exact same temperature in your house, but you have to be able to hold that temperature longer.

00:12:23 Rebecca Arnold

You can't just crank up that heat over and over again, or you'll end up just spending a ton of money on electric resistance heating.

00:12:31 Alex Haworth

That's great. I think you would mention windows as well. Michelle and I think this is something that there is some misunderstanding in the market or from consumers. I think there's two conflicting things.

00:12:39 Alex Haworth

Are people who think windows are the immediate solution and answer, and that's where you're going to focus your energy on.

00:12:44 Alex Haworth

And I think sometimes people go down that path, get disappointed that there is a very long to maybe never get the return on that investment on the other side of it, I think that we're so quick to emphasize air sealing and insulation because it can be relatively easy that we discount.

00:12:59 Alex Haworth

The impact of windows so to provide some context.

00:13:02 Alex Haworth

Usually windows are much less of the exterior of our homes by percentage right.

00:13:06 Alex Haworth

They might be 10% of the to use another job in term the envelope.

00:13:10 Alex Haworth

So in that respect, yes, focus on the rest of the wall.

00:13:14 Alex Haworth

Windows are an incredible weak point of the envelope as we all can intuitively understand, like when you stand by a window.

00:13:21 Alex Haworth

It feels cold. It’s glass.

00:13:22 Alex Haworth

It doesn't have a lot of insulating.

00:13:24 Alex Haworth

Properties and we're kind of limited with how much improvement we can make because of the cost of windows.

00:13:30 Alex Haworth

It's gonna provide a comfort benefit.

00:13:32 Alex Haworth

It's gonna drive down the loads, but it's not gonna be a quick payback.

00:13:36 Alex Haworth

It's costly materials. Costly installation.

00:13:38 Alex Haworth

So is this an example of why we need to focus on the low hanging fruit first?

00:13:43 Alex Haworth

But when the time to replace windows comes, we should be incentivizing and installing high quality products because that can also have real benefit as not just in getting a window that has a better thermal performance, but also how it's installed in the opening so.

00:13:57 Alex Haworth

All these things matter.

00:13:58 Alex Haworth

Most of us in this country don't have huge amounts of disposable income to drop 25 grand on high performing windows.

00:14:05 Alex Haworth

If we want to make these strategic interventions in our housing stock, we have to find a way to do it.

00:14:10 Michelle Moran

Yeah, totally makes sense.

00:14:12 Michelle Moran

Well, thank you guys.

00:14:14 Michelle Moran

Our next question is from outside this room.

00:14:17 Michelle Moran

This is our colleague Katie in the Wilmington office.

00:14:21 Katie Levesque

Hi guys.

00:14:21 Katie Levesque

My question for you is, let's say that you are buying a home, maybe a first-time home buyer.

00:14:26 Katie Levesque

Are there any red flags that a lay person should be looking out for that a standard inspection might not appropriately capture?

00:14:33 Katie Levesque

And additionally, are there any things that a lay person might kind of dismiss as being less essential but is actually worth the money or effort to correct?

00:14:42 Rebecca Arnold

Great question Katie.

00:14:42 Rebecca Arnold

To me, the most important thing to remember is that home inspectors are amazing, very skilled people, but they are generalists, so they know a little bit about everything and it's important to realize that whenever you buy a house.

00:14:58 Rebecca Arnold

There's going to be unexpected, and unknown things and you should always be thinking about what you're going to budget.

00:15:04 Rebecca Arnold

To be prepared for the unexpected things that come up.

00:15:08 Alex Haworth

I think both Rebecca and I probably have been asked by friends to come up at homes when they’re purchasing them.

00:15:13 Rebecca Arnold

I in fact insist on it, that people have me come to their house before they buy.

00:15:17 Rebecca Arnold

I'm very upset with any of you that are listening to this and have bought a house without having me. Look I know you regret it.

00:15:22 Alex Haworth

Are you talking about the entire podcast listenership?

00:15:25 Rebecca Arnold

Yes, the entire podcast listenership.

00:15:27 Alex Haworth

And also I've also seen several kind of home inspection reports and I can attest that they're pretty varied, right, both in quality and format.

00:15:34 Alex Haworth

And I would add that.

00:15:37 Alex Haworth

The thing that I am drawn to the things that based on my own where I feel my knowledge is strongest, is kind of understanding moisture management.

00:15:44 Alex Haworth

It's critical to what we do and is often something that can get overlooked.

00:15:48 Alex Haworth

So when I say that I mean like moisture destroys harms, it shortens the life of homes, it leads to extreme.

00:15:54 Alex Haworth

Unanticipated renovation and repair costs.

00:15:56 Alex Haworth

So when I talk about this, I'm talking about how does the home shed water both the roof, the gutter systems, the topography.

00:16:02 Alex Haworth

The site drainage underground ringleaders because I think if you have.

00:16:07 Alex Haworth

Really entrenched moisture issues in a home.

00:16:10 Alex Haworth

You could be chasing those issues for decades and throwing money, but in terms of what I would look for, spend extra time walking the exterior of a home, assessing the condition of the side of the house, the gutters, and seeing if there's any indication that maybe there's been hastily done repairs to hide things like that, like a quick paint job or like.

00:16:28 Alex Haworth

Vinyl siding that's been thrown up and then taking that through to the interior of the home.

00:16:33 Alex Haworth

Looking at underground conditions so basement.

00:16:36 Alex Haworth

All of this will have impacts if you do want to move towards like energy efficiency stuff, but this is like the first port of call, but understanding like is that foundation seeing lots of moisture?

00:16:46 Alex Haworth

And usually there are things like efflorescence which is like this kind of a white powdery like.

00:16:52 Alex Haworth

Crystalline deposit on on the interior that indicates that there’s.

00:16:56 Alex Haworth

Moisture not necessarily. Doesn't mean there's a huge problem, but it means moisture is traveling through that foundation consistently.

00:17:02 Alex Haworth

And when it evaporates on the interior, it leaves behind that kind of white crystal deposit.

00:17:07 Alex Haworth

So hat's an indication that maybe they're surface drainage issues.

00:17:10 Alex Haworth

Need to pay attention to.

00:17:12 Rebecca Arnold

Yeah, I think that's really important. And if that's a lot of really good points. And I think what I've seen in terms of horror stories is always.

00:17:21 Rebecca Arnold

Homes that look really pretty are often hiding something. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't buy a pretty house. There should always be some kind of access to an attic space.

00:17:33 Rebecca Arnold

The exception may be a row home.

00:17:35 Rebecca Arnold

You don't always have access to an attic space in a row home or you have a very limited attic space, for example. But I have friends who, without consulting me, purchased a home and it had no access to attic spaces, no access to.

00:17:51 Rebecca Arnold

A crawl space and it turns out when we got into the issue, when they moved into the house and their kitchen was going below freezing in the winter regularly and they had to move out of their house because they had toddlers.

00:18:03 Rebecca Arnold

And couldn't keep water running in their pipes because they were freezing.

00:18:06 Rebecca Arnold

When I went in and.

00:18:07 Rebecca Arnold

Looked the contractor had closed off the attic.

00:18:11 Rebecca Arnold

And just drywalled over it and their heating system was a furnace.

00:18:15 Rebecca Arnold

It was running ducts into the attic that were just blowing hot air into the attic that had never been connected down to the living space.

00:18:22 Rebecca Arnold

They also had uninsulated walls with water pipes running through those walls and a completely uninsulated kitchen addition with no HVAC running to it. So there was no heat running to the entire kitchen that was also uninsulated.

00:18:37 Rebecca Arnold

And the way that that had passed through the home inspection was they were not areas that the home inspector could see. The home inspector could not see what was going on in the crawl space. And so he was not obligated or she, was not obligated to look.

00:18:52 Rebecca Arnold

In the crawl space or make an assessment of the crawlspace.

00:18:55 Rebecca Arnold

The inspector could not see into the attic and so the home inspector was not required to make any kind of judgment or evaluation of what was happening in the attic.

00:19:05 Rebecca Arnold

So if there are spaces that are not accessible, it's a little bit of a red flag that you should think about.

00:19:12 Rebecca Arnold

And ask questions about and it's within your rights to ask for additional inspection.

00:19:18 Alex Haworth

I would also add understanding the age of mechanical systems and how that impacts life expectancy.

00:19:23 Alex Haworth

It's a really quick and easy one, like understanding that a water heater has a life expectancy of 10 to 15 years.

00:19:29 Alex Haworth

A boiler maybe 30 to 40 years.

00:19:30 Alex Haworth

Maybe when I do a walk through with friends who are buying house, I quickly go to the nameplate on these systems and then you can kind of look that up later.

00:19:37 Alex Haworth

You can always decode the age of a system by looking at those nameplates.

00:19:41 Alex Haworth

What I've learned about the construction industry is that oftentimes homes, the finishes are valued by the real estate.

00:19:47 Alex Haworth

Like, oh, it's a marble countertop, but we don't value the details of a wall assembly and the materials that went into it. And we don't value the mechanical systems.

00:19:55 Alex Haworth

The things that are going to ensure the longevity of the home.

00:19:58 Michelle Moran

Definitely.

00:20:01 Molly Craft

I'm Molly.

00:20:01 Alina Michelewicz

I'm Alina.

00:20:03 Michelle Moran

And I’m Michelle.

00:20:03 together

And here's your Mass Save minute.

00:20:04 Molly Craft

Throughout the season, I've been telling you all about the robust incentives and financing opportunities available through mass save for improving and optimizing your homes energy performance, increasing your comfort and saving you money.

00:20:16 Alina Michelewicz

At New Ecology, we envision a world in which all people have access to affordable, healthy, sustainable housing and communities in which to grow and thrive.

00:20:25 Alina Michelewicz

We are dedicated to working within these communities to achieve safe and affordable housing that considers the entire ecosystem.

00:20:33 Alina Michelewicz

From the built environment to the natural environment to the people who inhabit these buildings every day.

00:20:37 Michelle Moran

That's why we're honored to have worked with mass save throughout the first season of building well.

00:20:42 Michelle Moran

Mass save empowers residents, businesses and communities to make energy efficient upgrades by offering an impressive range of services, rebates, incentives, trainings and information to people who live and work in our local communities.

00:20:54 Molly Craft

We hope that you've enjoyed listening to the first season of building well. We're so grateful to all of our guests for sharing their vast expertise on sustainable, resilient, equitable Community development.

00:21:03 Molly Craft

We also hope you've learned about steps you can take and programs you can utilize to make your own home more comfortable and save on your utility bills.

00:21:10 Alina Michelewicz

And if you're interested in or work in housing, community development, sustainability.

00:21:15 Alina Michelewicz

Or another community centered field. Consider looking into the mass save community education grant.

00:21:21 Alina Michelewicz

This grant funding serves to increase awareness and access into energy efficiency programs as well as engage with community based organizations to promote energy efficiency, focus, educational and culturally relevant opportunities.

00:21:33 Michelle Moran

A huge thank you to Mass Save for this opportunity.

00:21:36 Michelle Moran

We learned so much this season and we hope that all our listeners have too.

00:21:40 Molly Craft

I'm Molly with your mass save minute and I want to say thanks for an amazing season.

00:21:44 Molly Craft

For more information on the many available mass save incentives and programs visit massSave.com.

00:21:50 Molly Craft

M-A-S-S-S-A-V-E dot com.

00:21:52 Molly Craft

Remember, our well-being is intertwined with energy efficiency. Get involved, learn more and make a difference by making energy efficient choices.

00:22:00 Molly Craft

You're not only saving money, but also contributing to a healthier community for future generations.

00:22:04 Together

Thanks.

00:22:10 Alina Michelewicz

Alright guys, are you ready for the Lightning round?

00:22:14 Rebecca Arnold

Woo.

00:22:18 Michelle Moran

Alright, so the Lightning round is just a bunch of short questions that.

00:22:22 Michelle Moran

Maybe, maybe not have short answers.

00:22:25 Michelle Moran

Our first question is from Adam in our Boston office.

00:22:28 Adam Ornae

Hi, Alex hi, Rebecca.

00:22:29 Adam Ornae

Does putting that plastic over the windows in the winter really helped with energy efficiency?

00:22:34 Alex Haworth

It does.

00:22:35 Alex Haworth

Yeah. I mean it's not glamorous, but it does.

00:22:38 Alex Haworth

And I I guess I mean if you feel the need to do that, it's probably an indication you have pretty old windows.

00:22:43 Alex Haworth

Plastic can do two things. It can block out air leakage through those panes, especially if you have an old double hung window and then it's not rocket science with like triple and double pane windows. They have trapped. Air between those layers and doing this plastic and doing it properly.

00:22:57 Alex Haworth

I've done a lot of these. I used to, yeah. Back in the day, my old boss used to. Make me do it for her house.

00:23:05 Alex Haworth

So I got really good at it, but like essentially by putting that layer of plastic you you kind of mimic an extra pane of glass. Trapping that air like.

00:23:13 Alex Haworth

That's how insulation works.

00:23:15 Alex Haworth

Yeah, it does work to an extent.

00:23:17 Rebecca Arnold

It's best to get the shrink wrap stuff that. You use like a hair dryer.

00:23:23 Rebecca Arnold

And you seal to the window you want to make it tight.

00:23:26 Rebecca Arnold

You want a pillow of air in there to be your thermal break or your thermal insulation.

00:23:33 Rebecca Arnold

Energy Star has a page on how to do this.

00:23:35 Rebecca Arnold

It genuinely does work.

00:23:37 Rebecca Arnold

So yes, the answer is definitely yes.

00:23:40 Michelle Moran

Awesome. All right. Our next question is from our colleague Justin out of our Baltimore office.

00:23:46 Justin Iovenitti

Hey, Rebecca and Alex, this is your coworker Justin in Baltimore.

00:23:50 Justin Iovenitti

My question for you is about heat pump water heaters. I'm interested in putting one in my house, but I'm concerned about the noise level because our best base for it is our laundry room.

00:24:00 Justin Iovenitti

It's adjacent to kind of a family room, so I'm curious if that's going to be objectionable.

00:24:04 Justin Iovenitti

Or if we can deal with the noise level.

00:24:07 Rebecca Arnold

Excellent question, Justin.

00:24:10 Rebecca Arnold

I have a heat pump water heater in my house and it is located in my basement underneath the guest room, which also happens to be my office and I can hear the heat pump water heater when it's on. If you were considering a location like a laundry room that’s.

00:24:25 Rebecca Arnold

Next to your family room.

00:24:27 Rebecca Arnold

I think you should look very closely at the audible decibel range of your unit.

00:24:33 Rebecca Arnold

It seems in the water heater industry that everyone's talking about audible decibels, which is decibels that people can hear with the human ear.

00:24:41 Rebecca Arnold

And the average seems to be around 65 audible decibels.

00:24:46 Rebecca Arnold

And that is about the volume of a normal conversation.

00:24:51 Rebecca Arnold

There are some that go significantly quieter than that. You can go all the way down into the 40s of the audible decibels.

00:24:58 Rebecca Arnold

You could also add an intake and an outtake duct so that you can kind of move the sound away.

00:25:06 Rebecca Arnold

I think they're best situated in a basement or a little bit farther away from a living space.

00:25:14 Alex Haworth

I know that they quote like 55 to 60 decibels like Rebecca said, which is supposed to be the same as like a dishwasher or refrigerator when the compressor is running. The only other thing I would emphasize is heat pump. Water heaters often have like a set amount of.

00:25:28 Alex Haworth

Programming that you can utilize.

00:25:30 Alex Haworth

So they don't run all the time, so you could essentially block out hours.

00:25:33 Alex Haworth

So you could make it so that it's running when everyone's at school or at work.

00:25:37 Alex Haworth

They're great.

00:25:38 Alex Haworth

I think you need to be cognizant of sound.

00:25:41 Rebecca Arnold

You could consider soundproofing between that laundry room and your family room before installing it, so you would be less likely to hear it in the family room.

00:25:50 Michelle Moran

Makie it it's own little studio.

00:25:52 Rebecca Arnold

Yes, exactly.

00:25:54 Michelle Moran

Great. Thank you.

00:25:56 Michelle Moran

All right. Our next question is from Lisa out of our Baltimore office.

00:26:01 Lisa Reed

Hi Rebecca and Alex.

00:26:03 Lisa Reed

My question for you is what is the highest impact, lowest cost energy improvement you have made on your home or a friend's home in your career?

00:26:16 Rebecca Arnold

LED's then air sealing and insulation.

00:26:19 Rebecca Arnold

I think that's kind of it.

00:26:20 Alex Haworth

Yeah. I mean, we're always learning in this industry when I like, bought the abandoned rowhome and left my job to renovate it. I knew a decent amount about energy efficiency and I look back on it I.

00:26:30 Alex Haworth

Wish I'd done some things differently and I've been able to like implement some of those things on other people's homes.

00:26:35 Alex Haworth

I did help renovate a friend's home.

00:26:37 Alex Haworth

And we were able to do like the best type of roof retrofit for a row home, which involves like having continuous above deck installation.

00:26:44 Alex Haworth

It's good for the building durability and like it was really fun.

00:26:48 Michelle Moran

Nice. Alright.

00:26:53 Alina Michelewicz

So that's it for the Lightning round.

00:26:56 Alina Michelewicz

The next section is general knowledge, so we have some questions from folks about where they live. Cool.

00:27:02 Michelle Moran

And our first question is from Michelle, who is out of our Boston office.

00:27:07 Michelle Margolies

Hi, Alex and Rebecca.

00:27:09 Michelle Margolies

My question is my apartment is always hot no matter the outdoor temperature it’s on the second floor of three floors, and we leave the windows open even in the winter.

00:27:19 Michelle Margolies

I'm wondering why this is the case and what I can do about it in my unit.

00:27:24 Alex Haworth

There's a lot of unknowns here, but it doesn't surprise me.

00:27:27 Alex Haworth

I'm going to go on a limb and guess that they have a hydronic system in this building.

00:27:32 Alex Haworth

It's not uncommon to see that kind of undesirable stratification in part due to stack effect.

00:27:38 Alex Haworth

It depends on a number of factors, one like how are the thermostats configured?

00:27:42 Alex Haworth

How is the system zoned?

00:27:44 Alex Haworth

But you can often see like stratification because of.

00:27:47 Alex Haworth

Stack effect so like the units higher up in the building a baked out, whereas if the system isn't zoned independently.

00:27:54 Alex Haworth

It's not great and you end up in the scenarios that Michelle is talking about. And then the question becomes how are the utilities metered in that building?

00:28:02 Alex Haworth

Only other little tidbit I would add is that like I learned a couple of years ago that often times in larger apartment buildings, tenement buildings, the systems were designed to force residents to open windows, like the blast heat is like kind of a.

00:28:15 Alex Haworth

Health thing is a way to create ventilation before we understood ventilation especially you know during winter times when respiratory sicknesses might be going on.

00:28:23 Alex Haworth

This is kind of the crude ways we've managed heat and ventilation in old housing and it's not the way we want to approach it today.

00:28:30 Rebecca Arnold

Yeah, there's so many things about being a renter that you cannot control necessarily, and it depends on your housing situation, the actual equipment in your building.

00:28:42 Rebecca Arnold

There are scenarios where if there are things like thermostatic controls that could be added to a radiator, if that's the way.

00:28:50 Rebecca Arnold

Your unit is heated.

00:28:52 Rebecca Arnold

Who pays the bills makes a really big difference in who is motivated to resolve the issue.

00:28:58 Rebecca Arnold

So if you're paying the bills, you're motivated to resolve the issue.

00:29:01 Rebecca Arnold

But it might be the owner that needs to do something about it.

00:29:05 Rebecca Arnold

And if they're not putting any money into the utility bills, there's not a financial incentive for the owner to do anything about that.

00:29:15 Rebecca Arnold

We can learn a lot more and we're happy, Alex, and are happy to have a conversation with you about the actual details of your building and what might be possible.

00:29:22 Rebecca Arnold

Yeah, it's kind of a challenging question.

00:29:24 Alex Haworth

It's good 1 though.

00:29:25 Rebecca Arnold

That's our whole goal and like what one of our enormous goals in the work we do at New Ecology is to prevent that.

00:29:30 Rebecca Arnold

Exact situation.

00:29:32 Rebecca Arnold

So many people live in rental housing and they have the right to be comfortable.

00:29:37 Rebecca Arnold

And healthy.

00:29:39 Michelle Moran

Yeah, definitely.

00:29:40 Michelle Moran

Thank you for that. And Michelle, you heard it here.

00:29:42 Michelle Moran

If you want more information.

00:29:44 Michelle Moran

Reach out to Alex or Rebecca.

00:29:46 Michelle Moran

Our next question comes from Michael out of our Boston office.

00:29:50 Michael Abdelmessih

Hey, Alex and Rebecca, it's Michael here.

00:29:52 Michael Abdelmessih

My question today is what can tenants do if they want to save on utility bills?

00:29:58 Alex Haworth

I think about this a lot. The first thing I'll talk about is that like there are low hanging fruit which falls on the occupants responsibility that aren’t.

00:30:05 Alex Haworth

The responsibility of a landlord, and I think we as a society, would benefit from being like more knowledgeable about systems in our home and how they how they all interact and what the cost implications and health implications of all these things are.

00:30:18 Alex Haworth

A lot of utility programs have kind of free giveaway programs. Every utility and state is.

00:30:23 Alex Haworth

Different here in Maryland, we have like a quick home energy checkup which. Renters are eligible for.

00:30:28 Alex Haworth

There’ll be some like decent educational materials provided explaining like.

00:30:30 Alex Haworth

Heating and cooling usually constitute this much of a utility bill. Here’s lighting and appliances, and I think that's really valuable information for people to understand and it can be empowering and often times that comes along with free like lighting, upgrades and replacements.

00:30:44 Alex Haworth

Which can be great.

00:30:44 Alex Haworth

We're doing a pretty good job in this country of moving to LED's like 10-15 years ago.

00:30:48 Alex Haworth

There was a lot like replacing incandescents and even CFLs.

00:30:52 Alex Haworth

But now I think LED is becoming the norm and lighting is, I'm gonna say 10%.

00:30:56 Alex Haworth

That's like the average I think for residential consumption and then you know other things that residents might be responsible for so.

00:31:03 Alex Haworth

Appliances, potentially.

00:31:04 Alex Haworth

To the previous question, like renters, they're.

00:31:06 Alex Haworth

They're in a tight position in therms of what they can control.

00:31:09 Alex Haworth

And so I think it moves into a space of like understanding the dynamic between tenant and landlord responsibilities.

00:31:16 Alex Haworth

It is useful, I think, to provide some context.

00:31:19 Alex Haworth

I pulled this off of RMI’s website that’s.

00:31:21 Alex Haworth

The Rocky Mountain Institute.

00:31:22 Alex Haworth

It's a nonprofit that does a lot of research around.

00:31:25 Alex Haworth

Electrification and energy.

00:31:27 Alex Haworth

This is a quote from that article and it says rental buildings consume on average 20% more energy per square foot an unoccupied buildings. Much of this disparity stems from the so-called split incentive problem.

00:31:38 Alex Haworth

Landlords have little incentive to improve home energy efficiency when they do not pay energy bills.

00:31:42 Alex Haworth

Something that Rebecca said.

00:31:43 Alex Haworth

Just a few moments ago and tenants have little incentive to make improvements to home when they may not be present to reap the full benefits of that investment.

00:31:50 Alex Haworth

In addition, these poorly performing homes are disproportionately occupied by low income residents, people of color, and other underserved communities, the constituents who can least afford to pay exorbitant energy bills.

00:32:00 Alex Haworth

I think we at New Ecology understand this intuitively.

00:32:03 Alex Haworth

It's key to our work, and we often get to work on the renovation of larger buildings, but a lot of people live in more unregulated housing.

00:32:11 Alex Haworth

I I'm really interested by different attitudes to this around the country and around the world because I think.

00:32:17 Alex Haworth

How rental housing is regulated, there are usually minimum habitability standards that are about like life safety, and some of those do, like back up to energy efficiency, right?

00:32:26 Alex Haworth

An unmaintained heating system could be unsafe.

00:32:29 Alex Haworth

It's also very probably.

00:32:30 Alex Haworth

Unefficient so tenants understanding how and when their equipment should be serviced would be a good, empowering thing for residents to understand.

00:32:38 Alex Haworth

You know that article I mentioned does kind of reference a few kind of initiatives around the country. I think it's an exciting thing to look at both for rental renters rights kind of advocates, but also for our decarbonization efforts.

00:32:49 Alex Haworth

This is huge percentage of our housing stock in the country, and if it remains kind of off the map, nothing's going to happen and we have to address it.

00:32:58 Rebecca Arnold

I will also add Michael, if you want to do something right now LEDs, maybe some plastic on your windows, maybe aerators. If you could do faucet aerators, you can also do smart thermostat setbacks.

00:33:10 Rebecca Arnold

Learn about what kind of system you have and what the smartest setback could be.

00:33:16 Alina Michelewicz

Right.

00:33:16 Rebecca Arnold

See you guys. Aren't going to get us to shut up.

00:33:20 Michelle Moran

OK, we have only a.

00:33:21 Michelle Moran

Few questions left.

00:33:22 Michelle Moran

Our next question is from Todd, who is a project manager in our Boston office.

00:33:28 Todd Winner

Hey, Alex and Rebecca.

00:33:30 Todd Winner

So as you know, it's really important to make sure the investments you're making on your home or property are beneficial and impactful in the long term.

00:33:38 Todd Winner

Do you have any tips for sussing out which contractors know their stuff when it comes to building science and equality interventions?

00:33:45 Todd Winner

How do I know I have the right person for the job?

00:33:48 Alex Haworth

A good question.

00:33:49 Alex Haworth

I think it depends on the scope that you're looking at. Like. I think there are ways to assess the knowledge and interest of like a mechanical contractor for instance, like their understanding of like high performance systems, you might be able to look at their website, see what credentials.

00:34:04 Alex Haworth

They have, you know, ask what type of system they typically spec.

00:34:08 Alex Haworth

You know, if it's a GC I maybe you look for them to be like BPI qualified.

00:34:14 Alex Haworth

Are people who straddle the world's of general contracting and home performance.

00:34:18 Alex Haworth

And what else do you add to that.

00:34:20 Rebecca Arnold

I would add that there.

00:34:21 Rebecca Arnold

The old adage to always get 3 estimates.

00:34:26 Rebecca Arnold

And I think you learn a lot from having multiple estimates and multiple contractors out.

00:34:30 Rebecca Arnold

And talking to them.

00:34:32 Rebecca Arnold

It's hard to get 3 estimators to.

00:34:34 Rebecca Arnold

Come out to your house.

00:34:36 Rebecca Arnold

It's hard to get contractors to show up sometimes.

00:34:40 Rebecca Arnold

But I think having more than one contractor out to your house particularly 3, making sure that they're licensed, which seems like it would be really basic. But it's not. Just make sure those contractors are licensed and insured.

00:34:54 Rebecca Arnold

So 3 estimates licensed and insured. And then I think Alex posed some really good questions asking them what type of systems they install and people that are passionate about doing their job right. I feel like when I talk to contractors.

00:35:09 Rebecca Arnold

I can tell who those people are.

00:35:12 Rebecca Arnold

Some people are really some people are really good at like the salesy side of things and like going through that kind of conversation.

00:35:19 Rebecca Arnold

But I had a contractor out, for example to look at sealing my driveway a few weeks ago and I have never heard someone speak so passionately about paving and sealing.

00:35:30 Rebecca Arnold

I was like this guy is so passionate.

00:35:34 Rebecca Arnold

That's not an item that needs building science.

00:35:37 Rebecca Arnold

But if you find a person who cares deeply about their work, they're going to be more open to your building science suggestions.

00:35:44 Rebecca Arnold

There's also no world in which you don't have to do your own research and learn a little bit on your own.

00:35:51 Alex Haworth

Yeah.

00:35:52 Rebecca Arnold

The you're going to have to do some research to know what to ask for.

00:35:57 Rebecca Arnold

You could find a company to do a really good home energy audit on your home, which helps as well, but you're going to have to be involved.

00:36:05 Rebecca Arnold

You’re going to have to put in the leg work.

00:36:07 Rebecca Arnold

To ask for multiple. Estimates you're going to have to put in the leg work to research the contractors and you're going to have to put in the leg work to know a little bit about what you're talking about or ask people who do know what they're talking about to help you.

00:36:22 Alex Haworth

You know there's always unknowns and I have a great respect for contractors who are up front about like naming the unknowns because typically depending on the type of project, there are things that are going to come up and their ability to anticipate that is kind of a form of building science.

00:36:36 Michelle Moran

Yeah, definitely. I think that's the theme that we've seen come up over and over and over again on this podcast is if you want something done the right way and the safe way you have to do so much research beforehand.

00:36:47 Rebecca Arnold

So true.

00:36:48 Michelle Moran

Thank you for that.

00:36:49 Michelle Moran

And we're actually coming to the end. This is our last call in question.

00:36:54 Michelle Moran

So this is Paul, out of our Boston office with our final question.

00:36:57 Paul Eddowes

Alex and Rebecca, this is Paul.

00:36:59 Paul Eddowes

My question is, what is the one thing that you have learned from your work that you wish you could implement in your own home, but you cannot?

00:37:07 Paul Eddowes

And what is the reason that you cannot implement?

00:37:10 Alex Haworth

And maybe this is a good maybe in the future we can have a rowhome dedicated podcast. I have rowhomes on the brain.

00:37:15 Alex Haworth

I live in one mostly gut renovated it myself with some help from trade partners.

00:37:19 Alex Haworth

When it was down to a shell, I wish I had done a better job of insulating exterior masonry walls.

00:37:25 Alex Haworth

I think at the time I was very afraid because I knew enough to know what I didn't know, and therefore I thought the course of action was to do less.

00:37:32 Alex Haworth

But now I know how to do that properly and because I think the industry has learned a lot in the last 10 years.

00:37:38 Alex Haworth

A lot of our historic masonry buildings were built to be uninsulated.

00:37:42 Alex Haworth

They have a lot of thermal mass, so if you get the building the heat cranking you can feel quite cozy.

00:37:46 Alex Haworth

But they are pretty terrible thermal performance when you have limited space. A lot of people recommend spray foam and spray foam can be great in certain applications, but if you don't understand.

00:37:56 Alex Haworth

That wall’s exposure to moisture at the.

00:37:58 Alex Haworth

At the time, it made me anxious.

00:38:00 Alex Haworth

And I'll just also add that what I love about this work is sometimes it's combining the ancient the old knowledge with the new, the way we built 100 years ago or thousands of years ago.

00:38:10 Alex Haworth

A lot of real wisdom in that old masonry buildings use lime mortar.

00:38:15 Alex Haworth

Which is a really amazing product. Unlike current cement, it actually breathes or it diffuses moisture better than like current cement.

00:38:23 Alex Haworth

Also, when it's uniform, it's an air barrier. And so I wish I had understood that.

00:38:28 Alex Haworth

And I had restored that interior plaster layer on the inside of the masonry and I know that I alluded to many things there, but that's something I wish I could go back and do because now I have drywall and I'm not planning on demoing those walls any time soon.

00:38:42 Rebecca Arnold

My answer will be I haven't owned my house very long and so I have so many things I want to do.

00:38:50 Rebecca Arnold

But budget is my limiting factor and knowing too much is my limiting factor as well.

00:38:57 Rebecca Arnold

So I have a barely insulated attic. I live in a rancher built in the 50s.

00:39:02 Rebecca Arnold

Knowing what I know about healthy homes and energy efficiency, I really would like an energy recovery ventilator in my house.

00:39:09 Rebecca Arnold

Or at least a ventilating dehumidification system, because we're in the Mid-Atlantic and we have a lot of issues with humidity.

00:39:15 Rebecca Arnold

And so there's a budget cost to that that I'm not at a point to deal with at the moment.

00:39:22 Rebecca Arnold

So I'm dealing with other things until I can. Slowly chip away at that. It takes some time to build up the resources to be able to do things.

00:39:31 Rebecca Arnold

For example Alina, getting rid of her knob and tube. Full circle!

00:39:38 Michelle Moran

Yeah. Well, thank you guys for answering everybody's questions.

00:39:43 Michelle Moran

Thank you so much for doing this and being the the guests on the first of its kind. This was so awesome.

00:39:48 Alina Michelewicz

Yeah. Thank you.

00:39:50 Alex Haworth

So many great questions and thank you guys for compiling it.

00:39:54 Michelle Moran

Thanks for being here.

00:39:56 Alex Haworth

Cool. Thank you guys.

00:39:56 Rebecca Arnold

This was fun.

00:39:57 Michelle Moran

Thank you to our guests, Alex and Rebecca, for joining us on today's episode.

00:40:01 Michelle Moran

We learned so much.

00:40:02 Michelle Moran

For more information on what we spoke about today, the show notes and transcript are available at newecology.org/buildingwell-podcast. You can find New Ecology on Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube and X at New Ecology Inc.

00:40:16 Michelle Moran

See you on the next episode.

00:40:18 Molly Craft

This episode was made possible by the Mass Save Community Education Grant.

00:40:23 Michelle Moran

The season 1 Building Well Podcast Committee at New Ecology is led and organized by Alina Michelewicz and Michelle Moran with Molly Craft and Michael Abdelmessih.